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Topic: Nouvelles de Siberie (Read 8506 times) previous topic - next topic

Re: Nouvelles de Siberie

Reply #15
Dans la categorie post ininteressant de la journee, et puisque j'avais deja commence la problematique des Kouriles dans ce sujet, voici une information interessante dans les news japonaises d'aujourd'hui.

Le ministre des affaires etrangeres nippon, Taro Aso, semble pret a faire des concessions sur le probleme des 4 Iles Kouriles occuppees par la Russie dont le Japon souhaite voir la restitution dans leur territoire national.

L'article en lien ci-dessus montre en effet que le senateur Hiroshi Takano (Komeito) a propose en avril 2006  l'idee d'un partage en deux parties egales de la superficie des quatre iles (Kunashiri, Etorofu, Shikotan et les ilots Habomai).
Etorofu etant plus vaste que les trois autres, cela reviendrai a donner au Japon les Habomai, Shikotan, Kunashiri et 25% d'Etorofu.

Cette idee s'inspire du recent reglement de differends territoriaux entre la Russie et la Chine (j'ai toujours pas fini mon bouquin passionant a ce sujet!  :sweatdrop:, mais en gros j'ai les donnees du probleme sous les yeux). Le gouvernement Abe desirerait trouver une issue a ce probleme avant la fin du mandat presidentiel de Vladimir Poutine en mai 2008. Taro Aso va sans doute proposer cette alternative tres prochainement lors d'un congres reunissant les deux pays. Mais au sein meme du PLD, des voix s'opposent, soulignant que le partage de territoire n'a jamais ete tres glorieux dans le passe (cas de Sakhaline qui etait a moitie russe et a moitie japonaise jusqu'a la seconde guerre mondiale). Depuis les populations de Ainous, Uiltas et Nivkhs qui ont dui affronter les velehite nationalistes des Japonais "Wajin" a l'ere Meiji, jusqu'aux differents russo japonais a la fin de la 2nde guerre mondiale, c'est toujours le meme probleme. Ainous avant hier, Japonais hier, Russes aujourd'hui.... Comment gerer les populations deplacees?

De plus on a l'impression que les Japonais veulent vraiment arriver a quelque chose avec cette proposition des "3.25", comme si ils voulaient montrer que c'etait un enorme effort diplomatique de leur part... Mais pour la Russie, ca veut dire 0.75 quoi, et franchement si j'etais un local concerne par cette affaire, je verrais pas tellement la difference entre 0 et 0.75. Depuis le debut j'ai l'impression :

- que les Russes n'hesitent pas du tout sur le sujet : pour eux c'est niet.
- que les Japonais sont convaincus qu'ils vont bientot ceder, et sont au taquet la avec leurs propositions dont ils pensent qu'en face ils la trouveront mirobolantes...

Ahem. Mais peut etre je me trompes, en fait il faudrait savoir vraiment comment tout ceci est percu cote russe.

Et puis, le deplacement de population? J'ai une carte au 1/300000 eme des Kouriles chez moi la, j'ai beau regarder de pret, je vois pas vraiment ou ils vont caser les refugies. Il y a deux villages importants : 留別村 et 紗邦村 (les noms d'epoques, je n'ai pas l'equivalent russes) sur la cote Okhotsk, qui serait a priori dans les 0.75 russes. En fait, une route transversale relit la cote d'Okhotsk a la cote Pacifique a peu pres au niveau du quart sud-ouest de Etorofu (si on regarde les longueurs), entre les localites de 内保 et 入里節. C'est peut etre cette route qui servirait de delimitation entre partie russe de Etorofu (au nord-est de la route) et partie Japonaise (au sud-ouest de la route).

Mais la ou je veux en venir, c'est que le petit bout de Etorofu qui reviendrait au Japon, c'est du bush, du maquis, 1 caldera inondee, 3 volcan, et pour le reste, rien a part des cabanes de pecheurs. Bref, ca serait vraiment symbolique plus qu'autre chose, alors pourquoi? Peut etre qu'en fouillant dans les archives, ils se sont apercus qu'a l'epoque du traite de Shimoda, cad quand Etorofu etait completement "japonaise", les Japonais (Wajin pour le coup, car nul doute que les Ainous connaissaient toute l'ile depuis le temps) n'avait pas explore plus en amont de cette ligne? Cela me parait hautement improbable, mais je cherche vraiment pourquoi ce quart inferieur de Etorofu les interesse tant....

Bonus : le spot TV des Territoires du Nord de 2007 : c'est par la
La fille denonce le fait qu'elle ne peut pas retourner dans son berceau familial (notion importante au Japon et dans le bouddhisme), sa grand mere etant nee sur les Iles Kouriles.

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Encore un enorme post que personne ne va lire et dont tout le monde se fout, youpi! :D
"Honey badger don't care"

Re: Nouvelles de Siberie

Reply #16
Bon j'y connais pas grand chose (pour pas dire rien) mais je regardais un reportage sur une ile disputée entre la Corée et le Japon (d'ailleurs je crois que tu en parlais il y a peu).
Y en a beaucoup de territoires comme ça que les Japonais se battent pour les récupérer ?

Re: Nouvelles de Siberie

Reply #17
 Le nationalisme se fout du fait qu'un territoire soit peuplé ou pas, il faut être le plus grand possible, donc un volcan de plus ou de moins ça compte.

Je suis moi même un nationaliste, et quand j'ai lu une news ou la France cédait huit hectares de territoire agricole inoccupé au Luxembourg pour qu'il puisse y construire un centre commercial et un parking, ça m'a choqué. Donc voilà le raisonnement nationaliste. Sans parler des avantages stratégiques que procurent la possession de tout territoire supplémentaire au point de vue militaire.

Maintenant les Japonais, va falloir qu'ils acceptent la perte de leurs territoires, ils ont déconné, ils ont payé. Ils ne récupéreront ces îles qu'au prix d'une autre guerre, et j'espère qu'ils n'arriveront pas jusque là.
Imaginez que l'Allemagne demande le retour de ses immenses territoires de l'Est cédés à la Pologne, à la Russie et à la Lituanie, du Nord au Danemark et de l'Ouest à la France et à la Belgique. On serait partis pour la troisième guerre. Faut vraiment qu'ils fassent un effort pour oublier
Un brave Africain au plus rusé capitaine qui fut jamais.
"Tu sais vaincre; mais tu ne sais pas user de ta victoire: Rome, que tu tenais, t'échappe; et le destin ennemi t'a ôté tantôt le moyen, tantôt la pensée de la prendre."

Re: Nouvelles de Siberie

Reply #18
Un article très intéressant sur l'avenir des villes mono-industrielles de Russie:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Ces villes implantées en Sibérie sont donc pour bon nombre vouées à l'abandon. Connaissant les méthodes du gouvernement central, il est à craindre que la méthode ait une certaine brutalité… Et quid de l'avenir des populations déplacées?

 

Re: Nouvelles de Siberie

Reply #19
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/NJ25Dh01.html

Un article plutot interessant et un reportage plutot  interessant (pas encore tout vu)

Quote


From Kuriles with love
By M K Bhadrakumar

The geopolitics of the Asia-Pacific region is getting set for a significant makeover, with Russia and Japan embarking on a fresh dialogue at the diplomatic and political level. Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda is scheduled to visit Russia in December and preparatory working-level consultations were held in Tokyo this past weekend between Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Igor Morgulov and his Japanese counterpart Akitaka Saiki.

The consultations have been followed up by an unannounced visit by Russian Security Council chief Nikolai Patrushev to Tokyo on Tuesday to meet with Japanese Foreign Minister Koichiro Genba. The weekend's working-level meeting itself signaled the mutual interest to kick-start another attempt to resolve the long-standing dispute between the two countries over the Kurile Islands.

Key to magical garden
Significantly, the weekend talks converged on the importance of the so-called 2001 Irkutsk Statement (which reiterated the 1956 joint declaration between the former Soviet Union and Japan whereby Moscow had agreed to return two of the four disputed islands to Japan).

Russian President Vladimir Putin's imprimatur is writ all over Moscow's renewed bid for a thaw in the seven-decade "cold peace" between Russia and Japan. Patrushev's mission opens a direct line between the Kremlin and the Japanese leadership. This is his first visit to Japan as the secretary of the security council, which is headed by Putin.

Russia and Japan hope to craft through the coming few weeks a suitable formulation on the long journey ahead to resolve the territorial dispute, which could be flagged in some appropriate way as an outcome of Noda's December visit.

Even though the territorial dispute with Russia has been lowered in Tokyo's foreign-policy priority, it continues to be an emotive issue for the Japanese public. The Kuriles hold the key that can open the door to the magical garden of Russian-Japanese normalization.

It has been evident that Moscow hopes to develop a strong relationship with Japan in the field of energy. Russia's bilateral trade with Japan touched US$30 billion last year and is registering growth of 5% this year, but it is far below the potential.

Russia also desperately needs foreign capital and technology to develop regions of Siberia and the Far East. China is a logical partner, since its growing economy and the vast resources in next-door Siberia and the Russian Far East are literally made for each other. But Moscow prefers Japan coming in as well as a counterweight to China.

Intrinsically, of course, Russia sees that Japan's gravitation away from nuclear energy opens a big window of opportunity for it. Japan and Russia reached a preliminary deal in September to build an LNG (liquefied natural gas) plant in Vladivostok with the expectation that most of the gas produced at the plant by 2016 will go to Japan. The plant has an annual capacity of 10 million tonnes and provides for an increased capacity of 25 million tonnes.

Japan is receiving big offers from Qatar and Canada to supply gas and it is also seeking LNG supplies from the US. Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper undertook a visit to Tokyo this year with a focused agenda to promote gas exports to the Japanese energy market by tapping into the growing groundswell of "post-Fukushima" opinion within Japan to opt out of nuclear energy.

Clearly, Moscow appreciates the urgency of making some movement on the main sticking point in Japanese-Russian relations at present, which is the territorial dispute, so that the overall bilateral relationship gets a new verve and could kick-start a mutually beneficial economic cooperation.

Sky is the limit
But what is bound to raise eyebrows will be that from Tokyo, Patrushev will also undertake a visit to Hanoi.

This is the second time in the past four months that Russia has sequenced its consultations with Japan and Vietnam and hyphenated the two countries, as it were, in its regional diplomacy. In July, Moscow hosted concurrent visits by the Vietnamese president and the Japanese foreign minister.

Interestingly, according to Kyodo news agency, Japan and Russia agreed at the working-level meeting in Tokyo last weekend to "strengthen bilateral dialogue in a bid to expand cooperation in the fields of security and defense amid the rapidly changing security environment in the Asia-Pacific region".

It added that the Japanese side "briefed" the Russian delegation about its dispute with China over the Senkaku Islands and that the Russian side "expressed hope that Japan and China will continue their dialogue and resolve the dispute peacefully". Put plainly, Tokyo has introduced into the agenda of its "dialogue" with Moscow the topics of its tense relations with China, and Moscow opted to adopt an impeccably correct neutral stance without taking sides.

Beijing will take note that despite the Sino-Russian narrative that the two countries will support each other on core issues of national sovereignty, Moscow refrains from backing China in its territorial dispute with Japan.

Equally, Russian-Chinese negotiations on cooperation in the field of energy are crawling at a snail's pace, while Moscow is pressing the accelerator to expand energy ties with Japan. An idea that was thought to be moribund, the construction of a 1,000-kilometer submarine gas pipeline connecting the Sakhalin fields to the consumers in Tokyo, might well be revived in the new climate of Russian-Japanese dialogue. Tokyo has sounded ExxonMobil to participate in the project, which is expected to cost about $4 billion.

Over and above, the blockbuster $26 billion deal announced on Monday in Moscow, which among other things leaves the British oil group BP taking a 20% equity holding in Russia's No 1 oil company Rosneft, introduces an altogether new paradigm in the consolidation of Russia's energy industry.

For the first time in the post-Soviet era, Russia's state-owned oil major is easing out the country's famous "oligarchs" who used to be shareholders by paying them off and, most important, replacing them with a foreign company. In this paradigm shift, Moscow may well consider at some point opening up the gas sector in a similar fashion to attract Japanese capital and industry.

Suffice to say, it suddenly seems that the sky is the limit for Noda to discuss the avenues of Russian-Japanese collaboration in the field of energy.

Not necessarily 'China-centric'
To be sure, Russia's energy cooperation with Japan increases Moscow's negotiating space vis-a-vis China as well as the European countries.

Recently, the European Union opened an investigation into Gazprom's pricing methods in the European market as well as its functioning as a monopoly. China also stubbornly refuses to accept Russia's contention that the pricing formula for gas supplies should be on par with what Gazprom commands from its European customers.

Both China and the EU will keenly watch the pricing formula for Russian gas supplies to Japan. Of course, the "Japanese card" enables Moscow to warn Brussels not to push the envelope. Russia is apparently in no hurry, either, to strike a deal with China on gas supplies.

At the end of the day, what stands out is the complexity of Russia's hugely important relationship with China, which is rhetorically described as "strategic coordination and cooperation". Moscow is obviously casting its net wide in the Asia-Pacific region.

Arguably, the emphasis on ties with Vietnam and Japan need not be interpreted as Russia's "China-centric" regional policy. But in the heightened security climate in the Asia-Pacific region centered on China's assertiveness in its border disputes with Japan and Vietnam, Russian moves inevitably assume geopolitical overtones.

Vietnam has agreed to provide access to the Cam Ranh Bay base for the Russian Navy and Moscow is encouraging Vietnam's interest in joining the Customs Union with Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus. Vietnam already figures as a significant market for Russia's arms exports.

The expansion of Russian-Japanese cooperation can only add to Russia's influence in the Asia-Pacific region. Notably, the United States' recent deployment of radar systems in northern Japan doesn't seem to deter Moscow from expanding cooperation in security and defense, although it has voiced concern over their cooperation in missile defense.

Russian commentators have suggested that Moscow's "European experience" with regard to collective security dating back to the Cold War era would have relevance for the Asia-Pacific region. Indeed, Russia's normalization with Japan will be in tune with such aspirations to become an independent and influential player in Asia and the Pacific, which is a region that the US has traditionally dominated.

Ambassador M K Bhadrakumar was a career diplomat in the Indian Foreign Service. His assignments included the Soviet Union, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Germany, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Kuwait and Turkey.


   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8YwiSt8Uk

   


   


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